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JONES: Today we are having a panel with three of the best cartoonists in the United States. With us are Scott Stantis of The Birmingham News, Joel Pett of the Lexington Herald-Leader, and Matt Davies from The Journal News.
First question: How do you think cartoonists are representing the craft, and journalism?
PETT: Well, you know, for the last three years I have been writing this weekly piece for the L.A. Times that forced me to do something that I didn't used to do, which is look at everything. It has actually been interesting. You get kind of a dopish view of it if you only see what appears nationally, in the Sunday New York Times or Newsweek or USA Today.
Of course, that makes me completely annoyed because, you know, I look at it and I think, "Why didn't I think of that?" So it is a dreadful exercise in humiliation to look at the whole body of work and realize what a meager contribution I made to it.
STANTIS:
I agree with Joel, who is a lot closer to it than I am. Sampling on a regular basis, I think the quality is far better than it was when I entered the field 25 years ago. So I think in terms of quality of work, that has never been better.DAVIES:
I agree with these guys. The Internet has given us the ability to look at other people's work in greater depth. When you look at the body of work, it is remarkable how the stuff is really good. In the past, it was much easier to comment on other people's work based on weekly roundups that are trying to take us [editorial cartoonists] to the lowest common denominator. They try to make us out to be like we are the clowns, we're the funny guys.Of course, we don't see ourselves that way. We see ourselves as much more important. We see ourselves as witty.
JONES:
I actually disagree with you guys on this. I think the people who are really stepping up are better than ever, but I think there is a large quantity of cartoons out there that are just retreads and cliches. And whenever we cry about our job losses and ask for more respect, a lot of guys are not really helping us out when you see 30 cartoons with the same theme.DAVIES:
You know, I think that we each individually have to be responsible for our own destiny in this business. And you know, other people's work--frankly, if other people are doing crappy work, this makes us look that much better.PETT:
I don't disagree with Clay's assertion that there are a large number of what he calls retreads or, you know, uninspired efforts out there. I think the editors pick things that are universally quickly understood or are about something that just happened and are basically funny because there is a little line above it that says "laugh line." So anybody can get that.DAVIES:
It happens that The New York Times has "Laugh Lines" as the title of their weekly roundup.PETT:
You know, I'm just irate about that. USA Today now runs better stuff than either Newsweek or The New York Times. The New York Times, I would like to single out for blame. To me, it is just horrendous that the so-called "paper of record" has treated [cartoonists] the way it has. Not only do they not hire a cartoonist, but they have permanently decided that our job is the equivalent of the writers for Jay Leno.Now, I recognize that there is some overlap, and I love
JONES:
Scott, I'm goingSTANTIS:
Yeah, right-of-center.JONES:
So how does it work whenever you draw a cartoon and the cartoon does not fit their viewpoint?STANTIS:
Well, my relationship with the paper is pretty good. So I get to wander a few feet off the reservation from time to time, but for the most part, the way I work, briefly, is:I don't do a cartoon lightly or just because I think it's funny. There is a lot of thought to it. So when the editor looks at it, he goes, "Oh, I don't know if that is kind of harsh." I say, "Well, it's a harsh issue and if you are going to have impact, if you are going to have people pay attention, then it is going to have to be described and drawn in this matter." And so that's the kind of relationship I have with them.
And we do disagree on some issues. Like I said recently, they have let me
PETT:
You know, I have been here a really long time, longer than the publisher or the editor or my boss or any of my colleagues, and I don't think anybody would even dream of telling me that the cartoon is unsuitable, harsh or anything, unless it was just insane. They wouldn't do the cartoon; they would come and would say: "Are you OK? What does this mean? What's this part about mutilating the pope--what is that?"So it would be more about my sanity than the content.
Now, having said that, I'm always aware that if you ask if anyone is censoring me, there is the possibility that you are drawing a lot of [mush], that you are not pushing the envelope enough. So it's possible some of that is worked in there, too.
Then the other thing I wonder about is that once in a while I go on a jag where I just get [ticked off] about one thing and draw about it like three times in a row. I'll get a lot of odd looks from the rest of the staff and editors. They just think it's really odd.
You know, a columnist, Nick Kristof, goes to Darfur and writes eight straight columns about it and everyone says, "Oh, give him the Pulitzer; that's really interesting; that's excellent; he really focused in on that instead of Britney Spears."
[But] two cartoons in a row about school segregation after that ruling last month in the Supreme Court, and people think, "That's last week's news"--it's like the court has been ruling that way for decades.
DAVIES:
I'm kind of inNo, actually it will be
JONES:
Joel and Matt: You are both Pulitzer winners. How does winning the Pulitzer affect the cartoons you draw?DAVIES:
Personally, none. To me, it more affected the way people treat me generally outside of cartooning. No, I guess it was kind of a wake-up call to me to say, "Hey, you know, you actually are doing something that many people read." When I was a finalist, at first I was actually shocked that I wasn't thrown on the floor.It's like a lottery that you cannot imagine winning. It was a surprise to me, but beyond that, apart from the fact that I got a bump up in salary and all that other stuff, I'm doing all right financially. Yet as far as the cartoons go, I still sit there staring at the blank paper.
JONES:
I remember a few years ago I was sitting on a restaurant balcony in D.C. with Joel and that is exactly how he referred to it--as a lottery.PETT:
Yeah. It is absolutely true. It's like winning the lottery--without the money.JONES:
That doesn't affect your work at all, as you approach it now?PETT:
For me, it made me feel, watching over the last 10 years carefully, it seems to me that everyone who wins it gets better really quick. I'm serious. I think a lot of work in a row, the work improved. I think that is because you don't want people to be thinking, "God, that doesn't look like a Pulitzer." You have to rise to the occasion.DAVIES:
Let me rephrase my answer: I agree with Joel on that. There is pressure. You do feel more eyeballs are on you.JONES:
What do you guys think about blogs?DAVIES:
Editorial questions are a form of blogging.I think blogging is much more innocuous. Blogging is a natural extension of what we do. If we are going to post the cartoons every day anyway, it doesn't hurt to put it on a place where people can give their opinion.
JONES:
Sometimes if it is a local issue, like yesterday, and I want to say more than the cartoon says, I go into itUsually, I talk about the nuts and bolts--like, my editor killed four before he picked this, and stuff like that. And that's what I get comments about.
Next question: How do you feel about the liberal vs. conservative thing? A lot of people thought liberals wouldn't do a good job while Clinton was president, and conservatives wouldn't do
STANTIS:
Speaking as a conservative, from my perspective, having the GOP in the Senate and White House for a decade is kinda hard. There were no obvious targets. Part of drawing a cartoon is creating a bad guy--so I was envious of guys like Joel.PETT:
You couldn't tell who the bad guys are?STANTIS:
There are wonderful, huge targets. I think you do your best work when you're really, really mad. I look at you guys' work and there's a lot to be mad about.PETT:
If you can't find stuff to get mad about no matter who occupies the chair of power, then maybe you're not that good at this. It is easier if the president happens to embody every negative thing on the planet. It makes it somewhat too easy. You can draw the little bastard every day.STANTIS:
It really is easier when you just have that kind of loathing.PETT:
Great cartoons are often about issues and not personalities.DAVIES:
Scott, you were a raging right-wing Nazi fascist and now you're not. You're one of the few conservative editorial cartoonists out there today who's not afraid to step out of the Republican line and criticize the war.Frankly, conservatives like to consider themselves religious, and I can't see why a war can't be something that's bad by conservative standards.
PETT:
Because it's a religious war and we're right.DAVIES:
Scott, what made you change your mind?STANTIS:
It was difficult to do it. Every few decadesI see a lot of conservative commentators, regardless of how heinous it clearly is, defend these guys. Saying "We're from the government and we're here to help" kinda rings true to me. All of a sudden we don't need warrants for eavesdropping anymore, and we don't need habeas corpus, and the Geneva Convention is quaint.
All of those build on top of the other until, if you're a thinking human being, you go: "Wait a minute. This is not the country I want. If we win the war on terror then what are we left with--a police state that's not better than China?" That was kind of the arc of my evolution on that.
If you're a Democrat, Republican, liberal or conservative, you can't be lockstep.
DAVIES:
It was interesting to see the evolution of many cartoonists who were cheerleading and now they're hyper-critical.JONES:
I think cartoonists found it safe to criticize Bush more when Jay Leno got to that point.PETT:
I hope that's not true.STANTIS:
It just occurs to me when people say now, "We're serious and we're at war, so no negative commentary."PETT:
I find that infuriating.STANTIS:
So do I, and I think that would rankle all four of us and even those who supported the war. America is about dissent.PETT:
Remember how the first year, how empowered everybody felt to shout you down as if you didn't have any right to say what you were feeling? They have fallen completely silent except the ones who get paid, like Sean Hannity and those guys. Those amateurs, letter writers and callers, they've just gone away. Where are they? Have they figured out they messed up and were stupid and wrong and duped?I think they're waiting to blame the Iraqis and to say it's their fault.
STANTIS:
Speaking as one who was stupid, dumb, and duped.PETT:
I don't mean you. You never called me up to say I didn't have the right to disagree.STANTIS:
That's because you have caller ID and wouldn't pick up.The hardest thing is standing up to say you were wrong. The ones who are really screaming at me now are the ones who were right. It's not like being wrong about tax cuts or welfare reform. It's about being wrong where people are
JONES:
People always ask about hate mail or incidents from a cartoon. Can you describe an example that sticks in your mind?STANTIS:
When you started in this business, you would get something once every two or three months and call your friends and laugh about it. Now it's daily and it's ugly. I have two sons, and I've had some e-mails where the writer went to the trouble of reading my bio and would mention my sons by their name and write, "I hope your boys are drafted and killed in Iraq."PETT:
That's really harsh.JONES:
I think the harshest I've received has been an e-mail from a reader saying he hopes my son turns outDAVIES:
For some people that's bad, right?PETT:
I hope your son turns out to be gay, a U.S. senator but married to a straight woman, and hasDAVIES:
The first really good death threat I received resulted in my getting a premium parking space near the building, so whoever wrote that one, thank you.Another guy was calling me obsessively and hounding me, calling me names.
PETT:
The funniest threat I ever got was right after the start of this war, some guy called me up and said his brother was a Marine and his brother was going to come down and kick my ass.JONES:
Are you guys ever asked to draw a local cartoon over national issues, even when you feel there isn't much going on locally?DAVIES:
I'm not going to do a cartoon on parking meters. If anything happens locally it makes the newspaper, and it pushes out real news. It makes investigative reporters quit working. It used to be our job to tell the truth, and nowadays newspapers tell people what they want--and that makes our jobs really hard on the local front.PETT:
This has been fun, but I should probably go and draw something really predictable that everybody else has already done.DAVIES:
I'm gonna go fire off a retread right now.| Joel Pett is a Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist for the Lexington (Ky.) Herald-Leader. |
| Matt Davies is a Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist for The Journal News in White Plains, N.Y. |
| Scott Stantis is a cartoonist for The Birmingham (Ala.) News. |
